Question on 10660 A – er, 650 A?

[susanjoypaul]

I have a question on this Teller County summit: last weekend I went up there, and from the road (north) it’s hard to distinguish if the east or west point is the true summit. On the map, it looked to be the east one, but from the road, the west looked higher. We went up and hit the west one first, but there was no register, and I know that for most of the El Paso and Teller county summits I’ve hit so far – at least the legal ones – there is usually a register (thanks guys!). Once on the west “summit,” I looked over and noted that the east one now looked slightly higher (doesn’t it always?) so we followed the ridge over to that one. Lovely summit and – voila! – a register too. I sat down to eat and sign the register, noting that, from this point, the west one now looked higher. Of course. Anyway, the register on the east point noted the peak as Point 10,650. Not 660. The map also shows it as 10,650’. Does anyone know for sure which is the actual ranked summit? Thanks. :-)

[John Kirk]

Sounds like a question for Kevin Baker - good that you visited all the contours though, that way you know you got the HP.

[Mike Garratt]

That jar was put there by Bob Martin. So I assume he leveled it as usual to determine the high point as being the E one at 10650.

The paper was wet and rotten so I replaced it. I walked over to the west summit as well. From the eyeball test I could not deteremine the high point either so I bet they are close. I am not sure you could do it accurately with a level with all the trees.

When the opposing summit looks higher than the one you are standing on, it means they are very close. Normal with eyeball curvature. Being that close Bob used 10650 so I did too.

[susanjoypaul]

Thanks very much Mike. I am glad I got both, then. I really enjpy your little notepad registers on those seldom-visited peaks - it's like runnng nto a friend (I've never met) over and over again!

If you ever revisit Sachett, I have a similar question about that one. The summit is marked as the northernmost point on the map, but when I hiked it yesterday, the southern peak seemed a bit higher, and someone had even piled a few rocks on a boulder on top, perhaps in an attempt at a summit cairn. I know... I should invest in a GPS.

I did both - just curious as to which was the true summit. Thanks again for your response on the 10er.

-Susan

[Kevin Baker]

I remember go over all 3 equal contours on this one, but can't remember if I found the register or not on the east one. Maybe we should use 10650 as the summit elevation since Martin determined it was higher. Susan, you will find very few registers on the Teller county list. I don't place them and many of them are private property, so maybe it's time to get that GPS!

As for Sachett, I remember thinking that the southern summit might be higher too, although it's a full contour lower on the map. That Pikes Peak quad has some errors, so it could be higher. Glad you visited both! I didn't have a level that day. Had to save weight going up the cog!

[John Kirk]

Changed it to 10650 and included a note regarding the Martin register. If I visit, I'll remember to take a level.

[Mike Garratt]

My log says I went over both Sachett summits.
I remember the visual perception you observed.
I was surprised as well after checking the map.


Though the Pikes Peak quad is poor quality... In the case of those two I beleive that the 12617 is higher than the 12590.
Why?

Well when looking looking along a ridge where the sky is the background, ie from 12617 to 12590, your eye ball curvature (made worse in some cases by glasses) makes the observed peak look higher than it is. When looking along a ridge where the next peak has higher terrain behind, ie from 12590 to 12617, then the observed peak looks lower than it is.

If you do enough peaks where this is the case, you can learn to make the mental adjustment in your mind to compensate for the optical illusion. Kind of like a mental level.

Other peaks in the Pikes Peak area where one experiences this phenomena are Sentinel Point and 12438 (which has multiple summits).
Again looking in one direction you have the Pikes Peak Massif and in the other a sky background.

[susanjoypaul]

Thanks Kevin, John, and Mike for the advice, adjustment, and additional information in re: optical illusions, retinal curvature, and the effects of negative space on judgments in relative elevation. Will take all into consideration on my next foray into Teller county territory - and beyond.

-Susan

[doug72901]

Sounds to me like you need to have a professional engineer and geologist along with you to provide expert guidance.