Peak lists are changing!

Discuss geopolitical area highpoints, prominence, and similar lists.

Peak lists are changing!

Postby John Kirk » Mon Oct 25, 2021 2:15 pm

Posted this originally on the LOJ facebook group page and posting here for those who do not “facebook” (more discussion there)…

Between jobs, I've been busy with a project that will reshape peakbagging lists as we know them. I've been struggling with how to transition the changes, but have come to terms with the necessity of the change. In LoJ's history, none of the lists have been particularly disruptive, at least in Colorado. New technologies and "measuring sticks" are available to us now that I'm sure original list founders would have appreciated having access to. Many of us have completed lists of highest 'x' peaks, all the 13ers, 12ers, even down to 10ers in Colorado. We've completed the lists doing what we say we're trying to complete, which is interpolated 300'+ prominence. There's always been an elephant in the room, however. I'm referring to soft-ranks and probabilities that any of us have actually completed lists if we have not bagged all the soft-ranks. There's a better way, but in the process there are some surprising discoveries being made. I can say with certainty that no one has completed the 12ers in Colorado.

I will strive to preserve interpolated lists and history, but the data is changing in the main lists.
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Re: Peak lists are changing!

Postby CandaceS » Wed Oct 27, 2021 7:40 pm

8) Thanks for your hard work! It will be interesting to see how the lists evolve.
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Re: Peak lists are changing!

Postby Tom Pierce » Wed Nov 03, 2021 10:00 am

Agreed, thanks for your hard work, John. What little I've heard about this project is interesting for sure.

Now as for the ranked 5th class list, I'll send you a list of harder peaks that I need you to unrank. Nothing major, just a few. Can you get that done by Thanksgiving?? Ha, ha...

Thanks again for your work and maintaining the site.

-Tom
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Re: Peak lists are changing!

Postby jmbrooks8 » Wed Nov 17, 2021 5:41 pm

Any idea on when & how this will roll out?
So far it looks way more impactful than just soft-ranks.
How trustworthy is this new data? Always possible for errors in collection process & interference.
Also looks painfully slow to analyze, so how will LOJ ever be able to update every peak?

Maybe this just teaches us a lesson - forget the lists & just focus on what's fun & adventurous or challenging & exciting.
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Re: Peak lists are changing!

Postby CandaceS » Wed Nov 17, 2021 11:24 pm

jmbrooks8 wrote:Maybe this just teaches us a lesson - forget the lists & just focus on what's fun & adventurous or challenging & exciting.


This makes me glad I haven't poured heart and soul into any elevation-related lists!

I've been wondering myself how absolute this method is. Especially with summits that have a tiny surface area. Maybe I need to read more about how it works.
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Re: Peak lists are changing!

Postby John Kirk » Thu Nov 18, 2021 5:58 pm

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Re: Peak lists are changing!

Postby John Kirk » Sun Nov 21, 2021 4:27 pm

Also if you haven't seen elsewhere, this is the progress of peaks analyzed:
https://listsofjohn.com/lidar/lidar.php
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Re: Peak lists are changing!

Postby CandaceS » Thu Dec 02, 2021 8:48 pm

Congrats to North Maroon Peak! :-D

And the suspense builds around Challenger Point...
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Re: Peak lists are changing!

Postby Jeremy Hakes » Fri Dec 10, 2021 1:57 pm

Thank you for all this difficult, painstaking detailed work! LoJ is the BEST.
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Re: Peak lists are changing!

Postby RyanSchilling » Sat Dec 11, 2021 9:45 am

This is really fascinating, and I didn't know this effort was underway!

It makes sense to me that LiDAR could improve upon interpolated elevations, but is it believed that LiDAR data is more reliable than previous spot elevations?
Last edited by RyanSchilling on Sat Dec 11, 2021 12:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Peak lists are changing!

Postby John Kirk » Sat Dec 11, 2021 10:43 am

RyanSchilling wrote:It makes sense to me that LiDar could improve upon interpolated elevations, but Is it believed that LiDAR data is more reliable than previous spot elevations?


LidAR is accurate within centimeters, and some spot elevations are comparatively off by more than 30 feet.
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Re: Peak lists are changing!

Postby RyanSchilling » Sat Dec 11, 2021 12:57 pm

John Kirk wrote:
RyanSchilling wrote:It makes sense to me that LiDAR could improve upon interpolated elevations, but is it believed that LiDAR data is more reliable than previous spot elevations?


LidAR is accurate within centimeters, and some spot elevations are comparatively off by more than 30 feet.


That's helpful context, thank you.

I saw discussion on your FB post that nevertheless LiDAR doesn't detect, for example, the large summit cairn on Katahdin. Why would that be?
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Re: Peak lists are changing!

Postby John Kirk » Sun Dec 12, 2021 10:22 am

RyanSchilling wrote:
I saw discussion on your FB post that nevertheless LiDAR doesn't detect, for example, the large summit cairn on Katahdin. Why would that be?


There are point classifications that are being filtered out being presented as a layer in that case. LiDAR would for certain detect it. We're not using processed layers, which is what Peter is referring to/looking at. We're using raw data tiles with all point classes/returns and all other LiDAR info in the tiles. Cairns and stacked rocks with gaps show up as classification '1' usually. It gets complicated on naturally "talusy" summits.
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Re: Peak lists are changing!

Postby jmbrooks8 » Mon Dec 13, 2021 12:18 pm

What is the surface area (2-D) resolution of the data being analyzed?
What earth model or elev reference does the data use in order to come up with elevations?
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Re: Peak lists are changing!

Postby mikeofferman » Tue Dec 14, 2021 6:57 am

Are unnamed peaks going to be changing their informal elevation names? For example, peak 13,832 is now 13,838'.
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