Confusion on LoJ Milford Needle/Granite Peak

[Scott Patterson]

Confusion on LoJ concerning Milford Needle and Granite Peak.

Milford Needle is actually the 9582 feet elevation, not the one closed countour just north of that. Granite Peak is actually the 9580 feet benchmark.

http://listsofjohn.com/PeakStats/Climbers.php?Id=18742

http://listsofjohn.com/PeakStats/Climbers.php?Id=17014

This is very important because Milford Needle (elevation 9582) is actually a very technical climb and is the highpoint of the range, while Granite Peak is a class 3 scramble.

Perhaps the confusion lies in that some large scale maps show only "Granite Peak", but the highpoint of the range is actually the technical Milford Needle rather than the Granite BM/Granite Peak. To climb the highpoint in the range, you must make a technical ascent up the pinnacle.

[John Kirk]

What is the source of information that confirms Milford Needle is the 9582 elevation and not the 9400+ contour where the name is printed on the map?

[RyanSchilling]

Scott are you referring to the SummitPost page for this info? It's a nice page, but it's hardly definitive.

The USGS GNIS (feature ID = 1430319) lists Milford Needle's coordinates at the same point that John has it listed.

[Scott Patterson]

What is the source of information that confirms Milford Needle is the 9582 elevation and not the 9400+ contour where the name is printed on the map?

John, my family is from the area (dating back to the 1800's) and the local residents seem to refer to Milford Needle as the highpoint (though I am guessing that perhaps Granite Peak could be easily be referred to the entire massif by some?).

Regardless, what is marked on the USGS map as "Granite Peak" is elevation 9580, rather than the technical point 9582. Is there a source (the USGS indicates otherwise) that Point 9582 is "the" Granite Peak? [As a side note, some local usage and even official maps in the area are somewhat confusing as mountain highpoints often have a different name than an entire mountain, for example Notch Peak is merely the highpoint of Sawtooth Mountain, Howell Peak is the highpoint of Antelope Mountain and Swasey Peak is the highpoint of Swasey Mountain-why a highpoint has a different name than the mountain itself is somewhat strange].

I think it important making a distinction to point out the actual highpoint of the range is the elevation of 9582 is the highpoint of the range and that 9580 "Granite Peak" isn't the true highpoint of the range. I can't read the summit logs, but do you know if the 9582 or 9580 was climbed? Not making a distinction between the two could cause confusion, especially since at least as late as the late 1990's, some have claimed that the highpoint of the range remained unclimbed (though it has almost surely been climbed sometime in recent years).

Only recently has anything but a very small group of climbers have taken intrest in all these West Desert ranges. Notch Peak got some of the earliest technical rock climbing attention for the area dating back to the 1980's by James Garrett and of course the 1987 AAJ has an account of the first ascent of the account of the first ascent of the north face by Tomas Koch and Peter Deinin. Since then climbing interest has spread into areas such as the rest of the House Range, Ibex and the Mineral Range (which is where Granite Peak/Milford Needle is located).

In 1997, Tatow Knob was reported as being still probably unclimbed in a book, yet when the expected first ascent of the peak was made a few years later, an old beer can was found on the summit, so obviously some of the climbing history of the place is lost and clouded.

If people are climbing what is labeled Granite Peak on the map (9580) rather than the true highpoint of 9582 (which I've always heard referred to as the Milford Needle), it could cloud the issue as to whom is really climbing the highpoint of the range, especially since it was likely only ascended for the first time in recent years, while 9580 sees more ascents (especially in recent years with the interest in "prominence"; it used to be a seldom visited place-some of the other peaks I've climbed in the area have summit log entries that have decades between signatures). Too bad the USGS didn't make a distinction as to 9582 belonging to Granite Peak (furthermore, to add to confusion, large scale maps always show Granite Peak, but never Milford Needle and they always use 9580). Regardless, the technical pinnacle of 9582 is the highpoint of the range. Maybe there could be a disclaimer or statement to make the distinction that the Granite BM and what is labeled as Granite Peak by the USGS (it might also be useful to contact the USGS and see if 9582 really is considered by them to be Granite Peak).

The USGS GNIS (feature ID = 1430319) lists Milford Needle's coordinates at the same point that John has it listed.

The same site/USGS GNIS also says that Granite Peak (feature ID = 1428324) is 9377 elevation (I don't get that one) and it's coordinates as 38.3827472°N, -112.8155044°W :

http://geonames.usgs.gov/pls/gnispublic ... ite%20Peak

The range highpoint (9582) of actually has the coordinates of 38.3842°N, 112.8157°W

I agree that it is confusing.

[John Kirk]

The same site/USGS GNIS also says that Granite Peak (feature ID = 1428324) is 9377 elevation (I don't get that one) and it's coordinates as 38.3827472°N, -112.8155044°W :

USGS GNIS entries simply use NED/DEM data for elevations at the specified coordinates - no one is manually entering elevations that correspond to maps.

[RyanSchilling]

The range highpoint (9582) of actually has the coordinates of 38.3855°N, 112.8161°W

Now I *am* confused. Based on the coordinates you provided above, you're saying that the 9400' closed contour is truly the range-highpoint (and thus the map is missing four contour lines? Is that what you meant?


Assuming that was an error, it seems there's a nomenclature issue... is Milford Needle the 9400' closed contour or is it the 9582 spot elevation (and range HP)? The USGS GNIS says that Milford Needle is the 9400' closed contour, and the map label seems to indicate the same.

With no disrespect to your family's roots in the area, it seems that John's current solution -- three listed peaks: Milford Needle (9420', unranked), Mineral Mountains HP (9582', the technical range HP), and Granite Peak (9580', unranked) -- best reflects the USGS data.

Borrowing an image from SP (taken looking southeast from Frisco Peak), I've attached an annotated photo showing what I think the USGS data says.

[Scott Patterson]

Now I *am* confused. Based on the coordinates you provided above, you're saying that the 9400' closed contour is truly the range-highpoint (and thus the map is missing four contour lines? Is that what you meant?

No; I made a mistake as I had both LoJ pages (Milford Needle and Granite Peak) opened at once and copied the wrong coordinates. I edited the message above.

Assuming that was an error, it seems there's a nomenclature issue... is Milford Needle the 9400' closed contour or is it the 9582 spot elevation (and range HP)? The

The highpoint seems the common useage, at least from the Milford side of the range. It may be possible that some refer to the entire massif a Granite Peak(?).

it seems that John's current solution -- three listed peaks: Milford Needle (9420', unranked), Mineral Mountains HP (9582', the technical range HP), and Granite Peak (9580', unranked) -- best reflects the USGS data.

Indeed. I think John's current solution is brilliant. The only reason I pointed it out is to emphasis that what is labeled as Granite Peak on the map (9580) wouldn't be the correct point to climb. If both points were of equal difficulty, it wouldn't matter so much as you could easily bag both, but in this case one is very technical while the other just a scramble.

Anyway, concerning the USGS maps, too bad they are so confusing in this region. Some interesting examples:

As an example, the big high peak east of this one. The USGS maps call it Mount Baldy, the Forest Service Maps and (most that I've see at least) Road maps call it Baldy Peak and the locals seem to call it Beaver Baldy.

USGS maps do not even agree with USGS maps of different scales on many of the peaks in the area. Check this one out:

http://www.mytopo.com/maps/index.cfm?se ... rys+Nipple

The 1:100,000 USGS maps label the peak as Marys Nipple. The 7.5 Minute USGS map labels the peak as Mollies Nipple. The Forest Service Map says it's Musina Peak.

Not that far north of the Mineral Range, is Fool Peak. Or Fool Creek Peak. Or Scipio Peak.

http://www.mytopo.com/maps/index.cfm?se ... =Fool+Peak

The USGS 1:250,000 map labels the peak as Fool Peak. The USGS 7.5 minute and 1:100,000 maps say it is Fool Creek Peak (which is probably the most common name from the locals living west of the peak). Some county and some road maps label the peak as Scipio Peak (which undoubtedly would only be used by those living on the east side of the range!).

In the nearby Pavant Range, Beehive Peak on the small scale USGS maps is known as Red Pyramid on the USGS state map.

The names of the peaks in the area can certainly be confusing!

Even the USGS maps of the names on the mountain ranges do not agree. What is known as the Needle Range on the USGS 1:250,000 map is labeled as both the Mountain Home Range and the Indian Peak Range on the USGS 1:100,000 and 7.5 minute maps:

http://www.mytopo.com/maps/index.cfm?se ... home+range

Road maps typically call the entire range the Mountain Home or Needle Range.

Pavant Butte (or Pahvant Butte on some maps) is never locally known by that name, but is always known as Sugarloaf.

It all is quite confusing! Some Colorado peaks (such as Meaden Pk.) have some confusion, but nothing like the West Desert of Utah!